In 1983, Stanton Friedman learned about Dr. Robert Sarbacher and his interview with
Wilbert Smith in September 1950. He tracked Dr. Sarbacher down in Florida and the
following conversation took place.
It was this interview which lead to the discovery of Dr. Eric Walker. See section
marked in red.
As Transcribed by Harvey S. Stewart (02/01/90)
F: Dr. Sarbacher.
S: Yes sir.
F: Hi; Stan Friedman up in Fredericton, New Brunswick, Canada
S: Oh for heavens sake.
F: Fact I (?) (Cut off by s:)
S: How's it doing?
F: I'm doing fine keeping busy I, as a matter of fact I, Im
just going through my files there. I
tried to get you when
I was just down in Florida on the 21st of September but you
S: No let's see, I was in the Washington state.
F: Oh, that's pretty far from Florida.
S: That's as far as you can get and still stay in the United States.
F: Did you stop and see your old buddy in Texas I found for you?
S: You know, I wanted so much to xxxxxxx xxxxx I was so pleased
S: when you located him. He's really. Did you see him personally?
F: No. Only on the phone.
S: He is the nicest guy.
F: He sounded it. He was cordial.
S: I really like Fred, but I haven't, I didn't get to see him in
Dallas. I didn't get to Dallas.
S: I skipped Dallas, I went from here to Atlanta and Atlanta to
S: Usually they stop in Dallas.
S: But the plane didn't, so I didn't see Fred, and I, He's a very
good friend of mine we were classmates.
F: Ya, ya that's what you has told me and that was my clue and that's
how I found him
S: But did you get some good information from him.
F: Well, no, I .. he was most cordial but ah , it was so well covered
up ess (????) he didn't know what was going on... I guess you knew
S: Oh probably (???) enough... the only thing I .. was talking to
one of the fellows.. in your business that work on UFO's,
gee (???) I get lots of letters on it you know.
F: I'll bet mine was the first.
S: It might have been. I think it was, and the only thing I remember
see I was what they call a dollar a year guy then.
F: Ya. I remember.
S: I had to run my own business, my laboratory and I couldn't go to
all the meetings. Now they did have, at least I was told, that's
when Karl Compton was down there.
S: I was told that they had recovered a UFO with some people in it.
F: Bodies, whatever.
S: I don't know, that's what I think was told.
F: Did he tell you where?
S: Well we were having a meeting at Wright Field and I couldn't
S: But later on one of the fellows said to me that those guys, if
they were people, were made like insects. They didn't have any
skin on their bodies.
S: So they were saying that's how they were able to accelerate and
decelerate without being torn apart. You see if we were going
a thousand miles a second and stopped in a minute well we would be
F: Ummmm, not quite but
S: Well it's pretty bad
F: Well you can, you can receive a hell of a jolt if the force is in
the right direction and if the duration is sufficiently short.
F: Ah but that's with the Research and Development board or did it
precede that when you found this out?
S: I cant xxxxxx (?) remember and I'm not sure that they were right
whether they were just guessing or something.
F: No okay, uh ... well but it is the Research and Development
board meeting that your talking about.
S: Ya Ya
F: Okay. Well... who...did ya get any clue as to where the crash
S: Well it was somewhere out west.
F: Okay, and do think that this ... any idea what year this was?
S: Well ya, let's see if Freddy was there in Washington it was in
the early 50's.
F: Okay did they imply the crash had just happened or that this had
happened sometime before
S: Well ya, the conversation was that it had been recovered
S: It crashed, that's what they were talking about, we were going
to have a meeting going out to discuss it xxxxx overload xxxx
xxxxxx xxxxx (cant make out both speaking at once)
F: Let's see early fifties now the notes that I sent you from
Wilbert Smith, do you remember, you do remember talking to him.
S: Ya vaguely
F: The Canadian.
S: Ya vaguely
F: Okay, that, his notes were, ah 1950 and let me see exact date
September 15th where his notes 1950. He asked you a question that
you didn't answer at that time which was rather fascinating (??)
maybe you've just given me the answer in a sense, ah he quotes
you as saying " Yes it is classified two points higher even than
the H Bomb. In fact the most highly classified subject in the US
government at the present time."
S: I don't have the slightest idea why.
S: It seems silly to me.
F: Well, his next comment, that was supposedly what you said and
then his next comment was ah "May I ask the reason for the
classification" and you said " You may ask but I can't tell you."
Well think that (cut off)
S: Well probably cause I didn't know.
F: Oh, okay not because of this crash, you see there is no mention
of a crash per say in this note. Do
you think it could have happened
S: I don't know there may have been several of them. Ah there was some
talk that there were.
S: The things, the things were the crople (???) around that time
they are the (??) things
F: Hmmm ya
S: Eisenhower came in as President as I recall
S: And whenever the Republicans come in they usually stop the research
S: For some reason or other
F: You remember Charlie Wilson (??) " Research is when you don't
know what your doing" or something like that
S: Well its rare(???) here I am with strong(???) Republican
F: (loud laugh)
S: xxxxxxxxxxxx can get in want to put me out of business
F: Well you know I was reading, one of the reasons, one of the things
that prompted the call is I had run across my colleague out in
California Bill Moore and run across the ah Saturday Evening Post
article about the boy genius that you were
S: Oh yes, yes
F: Which was a fascinating article and that that was 1950 also, ah
do you know any clue as to what people were involved beside
Van Bush which clearly
S: Vannevar (??) (cough) excuse me just a minute (10 second pause)
I caught myself a lulu of a cold
F: In Florida??
S: Well you know how it is air-conditioning, you walk into some of
these stores and they keep em at about 30 degrees and the temperature
outside is 90
F: (laugh) or 95
S: (laugh) lets say that once more
F: Ah, who else was involved besides Vannevar Bush
S: Well, xxx after Bush left somebody else came in now who was it
F: Karl Compton or ah you(???)
S: No no no no .. no wait a sec .. no Bush, Bush was the head of the
ah the se(??) Scientific Advisory to the President.
S: His official job, he was also Director of the Carnegie Foundation
S: And in addition he headed up something else
F: The JRDB at one point
S: Ya JRDB
F: And then they set up the Research and Development Board but then
I guess Compton took over.
S: Ya then Compton came down and from MIT
S: Compton left and then the other guy who was it , wasn't
Killingham (????) there was a guy named Killingham
F: Ya James Killian.
S: He might have but I think it was someone else
F: Not Kistiakowsky(????)
F: Wasn't Doolittle involved in any
S: No absolutely, that Fred would know, Fred would know who took
over after uh ... after Compton
F: Okay, Ah do you know if ah, when I, I'm very interested in the
crash that happened in 47
F: Out in New Mexico ah and being New Mexico in 1947 one has to presume
that probably Oppenheimer and Groves and those guys were involved
S: Very likely.
F: And maybe ah, the guy who headed Los Alamos, Hillbary, Norman
huh, I think it was Hillbary(??sp) who was head at Los Alamos wasn't
S: I don't remember.
F: Ah, but anyway ah ... the meeting let's go back to Wright Field
for a minute ah that was the meeting you didn't go to
S: That's right
F: Okay you would have had a Top Secret clearance and it would have
been required for that meeting, is that
S: I suppose, whatever they gave us, I don't know who was doing
the clearance thing
F: Do you know who else would have been at the meeting?
S: No, I remember there was one guy, frankly I didn't like him very
much he ah he had some company as I had. Seemed to me he was
from Philadelphia and he was going to all the meetings. And acting
very smug about it.
S: Ah, what the heck(??) his name was, I know he was .... shortly
after that we were held(???) at site(???) I did go to the one
meeting out at Hughes Aircraft
S: In California, I went out to that meeting
F: You know if Flying Disks were discussed there?
S: No, that had more to do with the...
that's when Raybull Wildridge
(???????) was out there
F: Oh ya
S: At the time he'd come out I think from NRL working on diodes
then they would then, they'd set up a production line at Hughes
where the girls used microscopes. That was the first of the
microscope lines as I recall.
S: And I think the object of going out there was to observe it.
I forget I know they were having a, that the, that the Raimo (??)
and Woodridge (???) where having some kind of fight with Hughes
because there were a couple of important Generals out there from
Wright Field and eh they eh eh eh anyway the boys wanted to keep
the eh the eh cafeteria open for the General in case he wanted
some coffee or pie or something and Hughes came in and he found it open and nobody in the
plant and so he closed it.
S: And I heard that they were mad as the Devil, as a matter of fact
that is what started the fight that led to the formation of Raimo(??)
Wildridge backing from, from some product.
S: That's what started it, (laughing) Yep I know the judge(???)
Because one of Hugh's men came to me, see I had a , in those
days I had a much higher rating than Raimo, about the only
thing we know about Raimo was that he had written some elementary
book on radio. See whereas I had written the bible on Radars
S: My rating was much higher than either of those guys and in those
days the people that write the oven(???) and in the military
gave contracts on the basis of the training of the people in these
S : But since I was better rated than Raimo or Wildridge at that time
although they were both older than I ah I had been, had a higher
rating and ah, ah, Hughes tried to hire me because then they
couldn't take the contract away from him.
S: See when they left they took the contract with them. Hughes tried
to talk me into taking the job, well I had a very good laboratory
at the time.
F: In Washington?
S: Ya, I was really rolling along and that laboratory was really
operating. We were building, General Electric got involved in that
Arctic Radar System. See at that time everybody was afraid Russia
was going to send planes over the Arctic
F: Ya, the DEW Line I suppose
S: So General Electric had been given a big contract to eh put in the
S: And eh, and Radar stations and nobody had done more xxxxxxxx how radar worked. So
General Electric hired me and I sent some of my
boys, I must of had 200 men up there.
What I did (laugh) I hired
telephone(????) retired men and gave them a course in eh high
frequencies (laugh) you know, and then we, we, I gave them
transmitters to take with them so that when they got a problem
they didn't know, they could call me (laughing). We could work it
out down in the lab see.
F: You didn't have to get cold.
S: No. So we did the job for General Electric xxxxx xxxxx got the
contract but we were his sub contractor
F: Well that's a...
S: So we had a big thing going
F: So who needed Hughes eh
S: Ya I didn't need Hughes, no
F: And his trouble
S: That's right. Although I was a great admirer of Hughes
F: He was a rugged individual
S: Oh xxxx xxxxx that guy was smart
F: Ya he was.
S: He was a lot smarter than people give him credit for
F: Well didn't he have a toolbit ... patents and stuff
S: Ya he did. Not only that I'll tell ya the laboratories that
he set up he hired very good men. I ah, well after all now
Wildridge was the, was the top diodes, diodes in those days.
That was before transistors.
F: Ya, oh ya
S: And eh, eh he was down at NRL the guy ah xxxxx xxxxx now Raimo
was a lower group, although if you know Raimo personally, I don't
know if he's still alive.
F: Ya he is. He's written a book in the last couple years
S: I'll tell you he's a very clever guy. Clever conversationalist
F: Well I worked for TRW, for briefly way back 13 years ago
S: Oh did you
F: xxxxxxly TRW was booming at that time and is now.
S: Well I could have had that
F: I'll be darned
S: Coulda had it. I could have still taken it if I wanted it. I
didn't want it you see because Hughes ended up really. Hughes had
one of his boys on the Thompson(??) Products board. But I found
out about it
F: I see
S: See and when it came up, you know, that these guys could leave
Hughes and swing a big contract with him if Thompson products was
financing. And so he knew about it ahead of time.
F: I'll be darned
S: And he said well I'll tell ya I'll, I'll put you in and we'll
just short circuit them. They'll be out of a job. You take it.
F: Well I'll be damned.
S: Ya, and I had no idea, well I don't know that I would want to
get involved in that big business anyway ah it is really not a
not a happy atmosphere to live in.
F: All management and no excitement
F: All management and no excitement
S: Ya, ya, ya and I'm a laboratory man. I like the lab.
F: Well let me go back a bit now ah when you say that eh you didn't
go to the meeting at Wright Field but somebody there told you
S: No, some of the men back at the office, in the Pentagon
S: We had an office in the Pentagon
F: Your office or..
S: No, actually I think its ..
F: You mean the Research and Development Board (cut off)
S: Fred Darwin, he was with the Pentagon at that time
and he had gotten involved in it. See we were classmates
Fred and I
S: And ah, Fred came to me and asked me if I would help him on the
guidance and control
F: I see
S: For the missiles
F: Ya he was the chairman for that subcommittee
S: Ya that's right
F: Or went on to be anyway
S: That's right and I came down and I was in that, and worked on it,
for a long time and I guess it was over a year, maybe a couple of
years, I don't know, I don't remember. But I know it was during
that time we had an office there that we all went to. You know.
F: The Research and Development Board
S: Ya the Research & Development Board. It was sort of like a little
F: Ok so the guys there told you about the UFO's
S: Ya it was among those fellows in conversation.
F: Remember any of those guys?
S: Not a one. Not
Fred would know them all. I should think
that somewhere among his files he would have a list of all the
men that worked there
F: Oh ya. He did. as a matter of fact he had names at his fingertips
so to speak
S: Ya I know, Fred was right in the middle of it
F: Ok so you think it was one of those guys that....
S: It was somebody in that group, ya they were just yakking aloud
around a water bottle or something
S: Whether they were talking facts or just, just be guessing
because one of the big questions was if these damn things
were actually not what you might call an optical illusion
with some kind of light beam creating them. For they were
accelerating at great speeds and they went in formation. They
went you know like ducks.
F: Ya and the question was how the heck they worked
S: Ya how they worked and what are they made of and how can they
go so fast, and go, speed they can go, well you could see one
one minute and the next minute it was gone. I
mean it was you
could see it go.
F: Were you guys talking about nuclear powered flight at that time?
S: Oh, we were possibly, yes, but I held, had certain ideas see,
one of the problems today we really don't know what gravity is
we don't know and I had an idea, I'm willing to work on it in one of
my theses but then my professor didn't believe me, but I had
determined that bismuth(?????) did not obey the laws of gravity.
So I thought that gee there's a leak I might be able to get
nature to tell me something
S: But they wouldn't let me, they didn't believe me, well they
believed me but he said hell that's a second order effect
S: Which is implying it was in the, in the area of, of the accuracy
of the instrument.
S: Well it was, it was and it was clearly, god some bodies going to
do something about it one day, as a matter of fact I was talking
to someone not too long ago and right now I'm putting a public
company together, on some batteries I just finished developing
and they are unusually powerful batteries. And you'll be reading
about it probably in the papers, at least you'll read about it if
comes through. I was talking to the head of the Securities Exchange
Commission on it in Washington a couple of weeks ago and he said
that if I got the xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx within the month of November
that he'd have it out before Christmas.
F: Well I'll be darned, What kind of, should I ask what kind of
S: Ya, well sure primary and secondary
F: A lot more WATT hours per pound?
S: More Watt hours per pound ya
F: Hmmm, electric cars here we come
S: Well it'll be a little while for that but certainly we can make
a lot of electric generators for third world people.
S: And they of course would be financed by the international banks
so it'll be a lucrative thing and the company will be able to make
F: Sounds like a good idea, maybe I should buy some stock
S: Well keep an eye out you'll see it
F: What's the name of the company
S: Well I was going to do it xxxxxxxx You know I developed, what
is called used today the IOS System for aircraft
S: I did that when I was in school and I later sold it to IT & T
they're building it now and you may know it's used all over
S: As a matter of fact they've mastered (?) it now so that it will
land the airplane as well as ... you know without the pilot
having to do anything .. and that's why were having such nice
landings. But anyway, ah
F: Let me ask you...
S: I had set up a school to train pilots to use the IOS System
and it was in Washington, I called it The Washington Institute of
S: So I still use that name
S: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Washington Institute of Technology
F: A very witty kind of xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
S: Well I tell you there is an advantage to having a name like that
When you do project work for corporations and you have a name
like that the IRS people in looking over the books think it's
an educational institution so they don't bother checking it.
F: That sounds reasonable
S: You know less than they would if it were Joe Smith Company
F: Let me get back to Wilbert Smith. How did he happen to wind
up with you as opposed to anybody else on the committee. Do
know who referred him to you or...
F: Or were there any other Canadians that you can think of that you
had any dealings with.
S: I don't remember.
F: Like the military liaison man at the Canadian embassy was a guy
named Arnold Wright(?) at that time I ... and I don't know if
he was doing ... well there was a famous Canadian Omand Solandt
(????) who was sort of the Vannevar Bush of Canada if you will
at that time.
S: Uh hu
F: Would would there have been liaisons between your committee and the Canadian ah Defense
S: I wouldn't be surprised again that would be in Frank's ??
he'd know that for sure
S: I should think he would know
F: Ok let me ask you a different sort of question ah since my
initial contact with you have any government people bothered you
S: I haven't, no there's somebody in California, Steinman
F: Steinman, Ya
S: Ah who has written a number of letters and I answered one just
S: I think
F: He's a strange man but ah judging by his letters to me (laughter)
S: I know he generally has a letter in here every 15 minutes
I look bad because I'm not here you know. I come back and there
are two or three letters, some of them typed some of them long
hand. I think god he's really xxxxxxxx???
F: Well he's sort of a peculiar guy but...You would probably
there was a guy well maybe he was doing it for a guy named Todd
Zechel somebody in my travels mentioned of him. Todd's a
really a not to be dealt with.
S: Where in the world did you ever find Fred Garland
F: Well I contacted the Harvard University Alumni Association
S: Well I tried a dozen times , they never had anything for me
F: Well I pushed them a little and I didn't know his class of course
S: I could have given you that
F: I know... anyway it wasn't that much trouble. I
sent them a
letter and then I called them because I was out of town
and they said they were sending me a reply and O said well could
you give it to me over the phone since I wont be home for two weeks
and they gave me an address and I called information and there he
was in Dallas
S: What a nice guy
F: He sounded .. he sent me a copy of one of the letters at least
that he sent you and you know .. what's the word I want..
I can .. I can associate with him because I worked in industry
big companies and all that kind of stuff, saw some of the same
things that he had seen and uh, it's a crazy world out there
Well ok, you know I would gather you don't have any records or
notebooks from this period of time
S: Unfortunately I don't.. I might of had some but I'll tell ya I have
I've been looking xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx looking for certain types
of enzymes that I have been using in some of the energy converters
and ah ah when I pulled in here ah I had a yacht about 90 foot
xxxxxxxxxxx and eh we took the xxxxxxxx I was trying to get xxxxxxx
to get my microbes. You see a microbe is basically a bundle of
S: And ah.. I was after the microbe... I
was trying to extract from
the microbes the enzymes I wanted Now when I came in here I
ah .... sail boats have an awful lot of sails for different
kinds of weather and I wanted to clean out my sail lockers which
was loaded with things and I bought a house with a basement
which is an unusual thing in Florida that we have basements
because the closest I could get to store my sails was about ten
miles away but my house with a basement .. could put the sails in
in the basement. Well I ended up putting a lot of my records down
in that basement about two years ago, about two years ago we had
about eleven inches of rain in two hours. The basement was full
of water. I got the water out as fast I could but boy I lost
cabinets full of records that was a real sorry thing I lost a lot
of instruments too. A lot of equipment.
F: Ah.. Oh dear there goes the records down the drain, but anyway
S: I tell you it was mess but the worst part were the books
especially one of the things that I needed and I need it now
I had one of the unabridged dictionaries you know of that onion
skin paper so they weren't so thick xxxxxxxxxxxxx boy I lost that
now that hurt me more than some of my notes
F: Well thinking back to this same period of time , early fifties
Was there anybody, you know a secretary at your company or
anybody you worked real close with that's still around, that you
might have talked to about this to
S: I tried xxxxxxx xxxxx he died Let me see. I
don't know where
to reach xxxxx xxxxx but he was working in a different area
and at that time I didn't work with him......My secretary is
S: But I don't think that she would remember
F: What's her name
S: What's here name I have such a short memory it seems like
I don't know I tried to get to see her when I was in Washington
...... (long pause) I have a lawyer I've become involved in
a court appeal sometimes you can't remember for sure and it
can mean a lot of money to me (pause)